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 The roles of good and evil in fiction

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Terry
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PostSubject: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:02 am

I was watching a movie called Malificent last night starring Angelina Jolie, which was quite interesting and it did get me thinking. Now for those who haven't seen this movie, it is a story based on Sleeping Beauty but with the role of Malificient in a more sympathetic light. This is an original but good take on a classic story.

I have previously looked at my own theories in a similar style for villainous characters such as Bowser and others like him. Things like this does make me wonder what actually constitutes a villain and what exactly is good and evil. Most of the time, we only see one side of the story and that is on the good side. We don't often see enough of the villain's side and what makes them one. Are they really that bad and are the heroes all that they claim to be?

Good examples would be Lotso from Toy Story 3 who became corrupt only after his owner replaced him with a lookalike, which greatly upset him. Catwoman, one of Batman's enemies isn't really that bad, particularly in the movies where she is more of an antihero and was also one of Batman's love interests.

One of Palpatine's quotes in Star Wars was that good and evil is a point of view, what is true depending on which way you look at it.

What do you guys think?

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:16 pm

That's interesting! I feel that some of these are explained in a backstory, which may or may not be in detail. If it isn't explained to the viewer/reader, this lets the imagination run wild for them and allows them to see the characters good/bad sides in their own eyes.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:37 pm

Like that line of thinking, Jess. Smile Gives people choices.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:27 pm

I agree with Jessica. It's really how each person sees it...

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:59 pm

sacredangel82 wrote:
That's interesting! I feel that some of these are explained in a backstory, which may or may not be in detail. If it isn't explained to the viewer/reader, this lets the imagination run wild for them and allows them to see the characters good/bad sides in their own eyes.

True yeah. I have many theories centring around the Koopas, what I am starting on rebooting. A lot of old fics of mine are centred on the Koopas with Bowser's Castle as the main setting with Peach's father as the main villain.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:40 pm

But aren't the plumbers the main villain? I honestly don't see how Peach's father would be, unless he's ticked off that Bowser keeps stealing her..

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:03 am

Peach's father is the king of the Mushroom Kingdom and it is he who orders Mario to kill Koopas and Goombas, etc. I believe he may also be quite controlling towards Peach too.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:54 am

But why would he send the plumbers after them even when the Koopas go to Dinosaur Land? That's more than evil.. that's more like sick in the head.
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Terry
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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:44 am

Yep. Just like how he was in my Chronicles fanfic. Except my version of Bowser's Castle is in Dark Land.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:12 pm

So in this case, who is the evil party? The koopas seem to be defending themselves from the Princesses' father.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:20 am

Quite simply, the Mushroom Kingdom as a whole and the Koopas want their land back. Plus they just don't like the Mario Brothers in general anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:03 am

So what would it be in Wario's case? Or Waluigi? It can't be the same as the koopas.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:40 am

Probably yeah. I'm not sure about Wario and Waluigi or where their allegiances lie. I have a feeling they may work with Bowser if it meant getting one over the Mario Brothers.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:47 am

Wario, work for Bowser? What games have you been playing?

Wario is an anti-hero, not a villain, and as such on the scale between black and white is unambiguously gray. This isn't me twisting facts to fit theories, his games back this up. His motivation is greed, pure and simple, but in his efforts to get more cash, he more often than not ends up doing good. The first and fourth entries in Wario Land exhibit this best, as he goes out to get lots of money and winds up rescuing a princess at the end (while Mario goes out to rescue a princess and winds up getting lots of money), or at least a statue of one. As well, every entry of WarioWare has him starting up the latest batch of microgames around specific mechanics because he saw the potential for profit in them. He's also motivated by rivalry with Mario and desire to be number one in the Party and sports titles, which as Pokémon has shown isn't always an "evil" drive.

Waluigi, meanwhile, defies all explanation by never being in a narrative-driven game besides the DDR spinoff. Explaining Waluigi's motivations besides wanting to win is an exercise in futility.

(Concerning the main argument with Bowser, does the crutch of the argument in support of the Koopas require a character that doesn't even seem to exist in the games?)

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:34 pm

Only thing Wario thinks about is himself.
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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:13 pm

Pretty much. Selfishness is the core of his character, with greed being the primary display method ("Money for me!"). But he is still an anti-hero; it takes the promise of treasure to get him to save another dimension, but he'll still save it (Wario Land 3 and Wario Land: Shake It!).

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:48 pm

Good point. Wario does seem to be more of a loner and has no need for anyone else so works for himself.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:09 pm

So now you have your answer on the alliance in terms of Wario, Terry. He isn't good or evil in terms of Koopas vs. Princess/Plumbers, but a wild card. Someone that pretty much leans to whatever side he wants and doesn't really help either party.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:20 pm

Sounds right to me. Koopas would probably still view him as 'another plumber'. Even if it was true, I don't see Wario or even Waluigi siding with Bowser, nonetheless Mario or Luigi.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:35 pm

I remembered something. In Paper Mario at the beginning just after Bowser attacks Peach's castle, Kammy says something along the lines of "They deserve it for what they did to the Koopas". I can't remember the exact quote but it was something like that. What did she mean by that? Was she trying to say that maybe the Mushroom Kingdom are in the wrong and that Bowser's actions are justified somehow.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:49 pm

Sounds like a two-way street. Koopas probably don't like being beaten up and stomped on by plumbers, don't see it being much different than how we would feel as people.

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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:08 pm

Bowser wouldn't just do things for no reason whatsoever.
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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:01 pm

Lance doesn't care, Bowser. O wait
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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:06 pm

Lance, stop being a poser. Iggy is much better than Lance AND Bowser.
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PostSubject: Re: The roles of good and evil in fiction   Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:14 pm

The whole Princess Peach and her father demoralizing the koopas is a bit too soapy for me. Why can't it be as simple as King Koopa stealin Peach because the plumbers and high rulers of Mushroom Kingdom mistreated them and gave the koopas the unfair boot, so in turn they take the princess.

also.. shup Jer-Bear LOL go play by yourself somewhere bucko
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